Post by Shuftin on Aug 9, 2006 5:41:11 GMT -5
06-29-2006, 09:07 AM #42
1042 Trooper
Gone but Not Forgotten
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rock Springs, WY
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Here is a more serious answer:
unchecked authority, once tasted, easily becomes insatiable
Indeed it does. Well said.
Quote:
The "Excessive" use of deadly force.
The "Excessive" use of physical force.
Discriminatory patterns of arrest.
These are not corruption. These are illegal and unprofessional, but not corrupt. Corruption has to do with ruining something or someone for some type of financial or real gain.
Quote:
Patterns of harassment of such "undesirables" as the homeless, youth, minorities and gays, including aggressive and discriminatory use of the "stop-and-frisk" and overly harsh enforcement of petty offenses. Chronic verbal abuse of citizens, including racist, sexist and homophobic slurs.
If used as shake downs, yes. Otherwise, this again is not corruption.
Quote:
Discriminatory non-enforcement of the law, such as the failure to respond quickly to calls in low-income areas, and half-hearted investigations of domestic violence, rape or hate crimes.
Not corruption. Unprofessional but not corrupt.
Quote:
Spying on political activists.
You mean like those planning on attacking the U.S.? This, is proactive police work, not corruption.
Quote:
Employment discrimination -- in hiring, promotion and assignments, and internal harassment of minority, women and gay or lesbian police personnel.
Nope. Not corruption.
Quote:
The "code of silence"
What is this, really? What does this mean to you?
Quote:
Overreaction to "gang" problems, which is driven by the assumption that most or all associational activity is gang-related. This includes illegal mass stops and arrests, and demanding photo IDs from young men based on their race and dress instead of their criminal conduct.
Here again, this is proactive police work - not corruption. While unpleasant to some, it works and so long as it is based on legal parameters, it's legal.
Quote:
The "war on drugs," with its overboard searches and other tactics that endanger innocent bystanders. This "war" wastes scarce resources on unproductive "buy and bust" operations to the neglect of more promising community-based approaches.
Not corruption.
Quote:
Lack of accountability, such as the failure to discipline or prosecute abusive officers, and the failure to deter abuse by denying promotions and/or particular assignments because of prior abusive behavior.
Now you getting warmer.
Quote:
Crowd control tactics that infringe on free expression rights and lead to unnecessary use of physical force.
Can you elaborate on this? Not corruption, but interesting to hear your take. Remember, one wrong look, inflection, word or stare, can kick off a riot. Unless you've ever worked a violent demonstration, you will never know the intensity of control a police dept must demand to keep things from exploding.
__________________
"With great power there must also come, great responsibility" - Uncle Ben
06-30-2006, 12:43 AM #43
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
My knee-jerk reaction is to say "When the Government (City,County, State) uses Law Enforcement personal for the financial fleecing of American citizens for the sole purpose generating revenue". You realize that you are "Armed Gunmen for the State" and are being misused for purposes other than what you were origionally intended. Eliot Ness and Pinkerton are rolling in their graves.
Not necessarily - I'd say maybe Ness and definitely Pinkerton were "armed gunmen of the state" and were misused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
unchecked authority, once tasted, easily becomes insatiable
no argument here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "Excessive" use of deadly force.
How can you "excessively" use deadly force? Dead is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "Excessive" use of physical force.
As Trooper said, unprofessional - not corrupt. Violation of policy and law, but not corruption. If the officer's partner, lies about it, then it's corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Discriminatory patterns of arrest.
That's kind of vague.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Patterns of harassment of such "undesirables" as the homeless, youth, minorities and gays, including aggressive and discriminatory use of the "stop-and-frisk" and overly harsh enforcement of petty offenses
Depends. Are these "undesirables": homeless, youth, gays, minorities, etc. trespassing? And as far "stop and frisk", that is for officer safety. If you were an LEO, you would do the same if you felt your personal safety might be at risk. Would you rather be politically correct - or go home alive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Chronic verbal abuse of citizens, including racist, sexist and homophobic slurs.
Again, that's unprofessional - not corrupt. And maybe it's just me, but I have a real problem with the word "homophobe." The word literally means "afraid of homosexuals" and doesn't describe someone bigoted toward the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Discriminatory non-enforcement of the law, such as the failure to respond quickly to calls in low-income areas, and half-hearted investigations of domestic violence, rape or hate crimes.
If you are not an LEO, you have no idea what their response times are - only what the mayor's office might publicly put out - and that's after his stooges filter and tinker with the data. Any delay in response in low income areas is probably because low income areas have the highest crime rates - therefore are the busiest. Futhermore, DV, rape and "hate" crimes are handled by detectives, not responding officers. Just because it might not be handled to someone's satisfaction - it does not make that detective corrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Spying on political activists.
Like the "activists" that encourage aiding the Iraqi insurency? Like those that subscribe to Nicholas DeGenova's wish that there be "a million more Mogadishus?" There's a big difference between dissent and treason. Those aren't activists - they're traitors, and they should be watched. There's nothing abnormal or illegal about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Employment discrimination -- in hiring, promotion and assignments, and internal harassment of minority, women and gay or lesbian police personnel.
Again, that's not corruption, that's exactly what you described as - discrimination and harassment. Issues often remedied in the courts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "code of silence" and retaliation against officers who report abuse and/or support reforms.
Finally, THAT is corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Overreaction to "gang" problems, which is driven by the assumption that most or all associational activity is gang-related. This includes illegal mass stops and arrests, and demanding photo IDs from young men based on their race and dress instead of their criminal conduct.
Nope, perfectly legal. Although some states don't have laws that require a citizen to provide an LEO with ID upon demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "war on drugs," with its overboard searches and other tactics that endanger innocent bystanders. This "war" wastes scarce resources on unproductive "buy and bust" operations to the neglect of more promising community-based approaches.
That's not corruption - that's policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Lack of accountability, such as the failure to discipline or prosecute abusive officers, and the failure to deter abuse by denying promotions and/or particular assignments because of prior abusive behavior
Whether or not to prosecute is not up to the PD, that's the duty of the District Attorney, or in the case of a felony - a grand jury. If someone is not prosecuted, that is on them, not the PD. The Cynthia McKinney case is a perfect example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Crowd control tactics that infringe on free expression rights and lead to unnecessary use of physical force.
How can a crowd control tactic infringe on free expression? That makes no sense. And the force that's used is usually in response to the threat presented. There was a reason the National Guardsmen at Kent State weren't prosecuted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by equinox137 : 06-30-2006 at 01:25 AM.
06-30-2006, 03:36 AM #44
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
I stand corrected. I answered everything but the question. Let me try again.
Corruption -- forbidden acts involving misuse of office for gain
Deviance -- behavior inconsistent with norms, values, or ethics
Misconduct -- wrongdoing violations of departmental procedures
Favoritism -- unfair "breaks" to friends or relatives (nepotism)
Police deviance is a much broader term than corruption. It includes all activities which are inconsistent with norms, values, or ethics (from a societal standpoint or even from the police standpoint). A theorem in criminology is that it's always fruitful to study when people not only break society's norms, but the norms of their own social group too.
Corruption is criminal conduct that can involve under using one's authority, overusing one's authority, or profiteering via one's authority. The key element is misuse of official authority; the gain can be personal or for the common good. Corruption is bad because it undermines integrity, the state of policing being whole or undivided.
Police misconduct is impropriety of office, not misuse of authority. It's wrongdoing, the appearance of wrongdoing, or puzzling behavior that violates standards usually set down in departmental policies and procedures, for good reasons, that the employee may or may not be cognizant of. Misconduct is bad because it leaves the public free to speculate and draw sweeping generalizations about the profession of policing as a whole. The different types of misconduct are as follows:
Malfeasance -- intentional commission of a prohibited act or intentional unjust performance of some act of which the party had no right (e.g., gratuity, perjury, use of police resources for personal use)
Misfeasance -- performance of a duty or act that one is obligated or permitted to do in a manner which is improper, sloppy, or negligent (e.g., report writing, unsafe operation of motor vehicle, aggressively "reprimanding" a citizen, improper searching of suspect)
Nonfeasance -- failure to perform an act which one is obligated to do either by law or directive due to omission or failure to recognize the obligation (e.g., failure to file report, improper stop & frisk, security breach)
And 90% of the examples you gave did not fall under any of the definitions that you cut and pasted.
06-30-2006, 01:10 PM #45
Mitchell_in_CT
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,187 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
An honorable honest law abiding citizen contributing to society one day and a hardened criminal the next day after the passage of a seatbelt law or an open container law or some other such nonsense.
I (Symbolicly) have your gun to my head. Purchase protection from guns (Car insurance) at the point of guns. Where is my right to say "No"?
What a load of bullshi+.
Where is your right to say no? Move to a state that doesn't require car insurance...
"Hardened Criminal" for not wearing a belt or DUI...Um...OK...Yeah...
You need help. I suggest you get very drunk and play with loaded firearms in the safety of your own home for several hours. That will get you the help you need.
07-01-2006, 12:36 AM #46
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
I think that my initial knee-jerk reaction was closest to being right. Each new law that is passed creates a new criminal. An honorable honest law abiding citizen contributing to society one day and a hardened criminal the next day after the passage of a seatbelt law or an open container law or some other such nonsense. You know the money makers. Hell it brings in revenue for the State.
That is a policy issue, not one of corruption. And a seatbelt violator, a hardened criminal??? What planet are you on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
You can argue that this is Government corruption and not police corruption. “overusing one's authority, or profiteering via one's authority. The key element is misuse of official authority; the gain can be personal or for the common good.”
Not if the law is upheld/not struck down by a court of competent jurisdiction. Even so, the thread is about police corruption, not laws you might not like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Becoming a police officer is voluntary. There is no gun to your head forcing you to join the force. I do not have the option to volenteer. I (Symbolicly) have your gun to my head. Purchase protection from guns (Car insurance) at the point of guns. Where is my right to say "No"? Car jackers and rapist hear "No" all the time. I'm getting off the subject. Yes this is Government corruption but police volenteer to be the hired guns for the State collecting revenue and calling it law enforcement. It is also police corruption in that misusing one's authority for (State) profit. I say this thinking of Wyatt Earp and other town sherriffs who "To serve and to protect" the people instead of siding with the State against the people.
I don't know about everyone else, but you completely lost me with comparing car insurance and guns. Although I don't necessarily agree with forced auto insurance - I don't think you can call that corruption either.
1042 Trooper
Gone but Not Forgotten
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Rock Springs, WY
Posts: 1,006
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Here is a more serious answer:
unchecked authority, once tasted, easily becomes insatiable
Indeed it does. Well said.
Quote:
The "Excessive" use of deadly force.
The "Excessive" use of physical force.
Discriminatory patterns of arrest.
These are not corruption. These are illegal and unprofessional, but not corrupt. Corruption has to do with ruining something or someone for some type of financial or real gain.
Quote:
Patterns of harassment of such "undesirables" as the homeless, youth, minorities and gays, including aggressive and discriminatory use of the "stop-and-frisk" and overly harsh enforcement of petty offenses. Chronic verbal abuse of citizens, including racist, sexist and homophobic slurs.
If used as shake downs, yes. Otherwise, this again is not corruption.
Quote:
Discriminatory non-enforcement of the law, such as the failure to respond quickly to calls in low-income areas, and half-hearted investigations of domestic violence, rape or hate crimes.
Not corruption. Unprofessional but not corrupt.
Quote:
Spying on political activists.
You mean like those planning on attacking the U.S.? This, is proactive police work, not corruption.
Quote:
Employment discrimination -- in hiring, promotion and assignments, and internal harassment of minority, women and gay or lesbian police personnel.
Nope. Not corruption.
Quote:
The "code of silence"
What is this, really? What does this mean to you?
Quote:
Overreaction to "gang" problems, which is driven by the assumption that most or all associational activity is gang-related. This includes illegal mass stops and arrests, and demanding photo IDs from young men based on their race and dress instead of their criminal conduct.
Here again, this is proactive police work - not corruption. While unpleasant to some, it works and so long as it is based on legal parameters, it's legal.
Quote:
The "war on drugs," with its overboard searches and other tactics that endanger innocent bystanders. This "war" wastes scarce resources on unproductive "buy and bust" operations to the neglect of more promising community-based approaches.
Not corruption.
Quote:
Lack of accountability, such as the failure to discipline or prosecute abusive officers, and the failure to deter abuse by denying promotions and/or particular assignments because of prior abusive behavior.
Now you getting warmer.
Quote:
Crowd control tactics that infringe on free expression rights and lead to unnecessary use of physical force.
Can you elaborate on this? Not corruption, but interesting to hear your take. Remember, one wrong look, inflection, word or stare, can kick off a riot. Unless you've ever worked a violent demonstration, you will never know the intensity of control a police dept must demand to keep things from exploding.
__________________
"With great power there must also come, great responsibility" - Uncle Ben
06-30-2006, 12:43 AM #43
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
My knee-jerk reaction is to say "When the Government (City,County, State) uses Law Enforcement personal for the financial fleecing of American citizens for the sole purpose generating revenue". You realize that you are "Armed Gunmen for the State" and are being misused for purposes other than what you were origionally intended. Eliot Ness and Pinkerton are rolling in their graves.
Not necessarily - I'd say maybe Ness and definitely Pinkerton were "armed gunmen of the state" and were misused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
unchecked authority, once tasted, easily becomes insatiable
no argument here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "Excessive" use of deadly force.
How can you "excessively" use deadly force? Dead is dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "Excessive" use of physical force.
As Trooper said, unprofessional - not corrupt. Violation of policy and law, but not corruption. If the officer's partner, lies about it, then it's corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Discriminatory patterns of arrest.
That's kind of vague.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Patterns of harassment of such "undesirables" as the homeless, youth, minorities and gays, including aggressive and discriminatory use of the "stop-and-frisk" and overly harsh enforcement of petty offenses
Depends. Are these "undesirables": homeless, youth, gays, minorities, etc. trespassing? And as far "stop and frisk", that is for officer safety. If you were an LEO, you would do the same if you felt your personal safety might be at risk. Would you rather be politically correct - or go home alive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Chronic verbal abuse of citizens, including racist, sexist and homophobic slurs.
Again, that's unprofessional - not corrupt. And maybe it's just me, but I have a real problem with the word "homophobe." The word literally means "afraid of homosexuals" and doesn't describe someone bigoted toward the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Discriminatory non-enforcement of the law, such as the failure to respond quickly to calls in low-income areas, and half-hearted investigations of domestic violence, rape or hate crimes.
If you are not an LEO, you have no idea what their response times are - only what the mayor's office might publicly put out - and that's after his stooges filter and tinker with the data. Any delay in response in low income areas is probably because low income areas have the highest crime rates - therefore are the busiest. Futhermore, DV, rape and "hate" crimes are handled by detectives, not responding officers. Just because it might not be handled to someone's satisfaction - it does not make that detective corrupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Spying on political activists.
Like the "activists" that encourage aiding the Iraqi insurency? Like those that subscribe to Nicholas DeGenova's wish that there be "a million more Mogadishus?" There's a big difference between dissent and treason. Those aren't activists - they're traitors, and they should be watched. There's nothing abnormal or illegal about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Employment discrimination -- in hiring, promotion and assignments, and internal harassment of minority, women and gay or lesbian police personnel.
Again, that's not corruption, that's exactly what you described as - discrimination and harassment. Issues often remedied in the courts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "code of silence" and retaliation against officers who report abuse and/or support reforms.
Finally, THAT is corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Overreaction to "gang" problems, which is driven by the assumption that most or all associational activity is gang-related. This includes illegal mass stops and arrests, and demanding photo IDs from young men based on their race and dress instead of their criminal conduct.
Nope, perfectly legal. Although some states don't have laws that require a citizen to provide an LEO with ID upon demand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
The "war on drugs," with its overboard searches and other tactics that endanger innocent bystanders. This "war" wastes scarce resources on unproductive "buy and bust" operations to the neglect of more promising community-based approaches.
That's not corruption - that's policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Lack of accountability, such as the failure to discipline or prosecute abusive officers, and the failure to deter abuse by denying promotions and/or particular assignments because of prior abusive behavior
Whether or not to prosecute is not up to the PD, that's the duty of the District Attorney, or in the case of a felony - a grand jury. If someone is not prosecuted, that is on them, not the PD. The Cynthia McKinney case is a perfect example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Crowd control tactics that infringe on free expression rights and lead to unnecessary use of physical force.
How can a crowd control tactic infringe on free expression? That makes no sense. And the force that's used is usually in response to the threat presented. There was a reason the National Guardsmen at Kent State weren't prosecuted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by equinox137 : 06-30-2006 at 01:25 AM.
06-30-2006, 03:36 AM #44
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
I stand corrected. I answered everything but the question. Let me try again.
Corruption -- forbidden acts involving misuse of office for gain
Deviance -- behavior inconsistent with norms, values, or ethics
Misconduct -- wrongdoing violations of departmental procedures
Favoritism -- unfair "breaks" to friends or relatives (nepotism)
Police deviance is a much broader term than corruption. It includes all activities which are inconsistent with norms, values, or ethics (from a societal standpoint or even from the police standpoint). A theorem in criminology is that it's always fruitful to study when people not only break society's norms, but the norms of their own social group too.
Corruption is criminal conduct that can involve under using one's authority, overusing one's authority, or profiteering via one's authority. The key element is misuse of official authority; the gain can be personal or for the common good. Corruption is bad because it undermines integrity, the state of policing being whole or undivided.
Police misconduct is impropriety of office, not misuse of authority. It's wrongdoing, the appearance of wrongdoing, or puzzling behavior that violates standards usually set down in departmental policies and procedures, for good reasons, that the employee may or may not be cognizant of. Misconduct is bad because it leaves the public free to speculate and draw sweeping generalizations about the profession of policing as a whole. The different types of misconduct are as follows:
Malfeasance -- intentional commission of a prohibited act or intentional unjust performance of some act of which the party had no right (e.g., gratuity, perjury, use of police resources for personal use)
Misfeasance -- performance of a duty or act that one is obligated or permitted to do in a manner which is improper, sloppy, or negligent (e.g., report writing, unsafe operation of motor vehicle, aggressively "reprimanding" a citizen, improper searching of suspect)
Nonfeasance -- failure to perform an act which one is obligated to do either by law or directive due to omission or failure to recognize the obligation (e.g., failure to file report, improper stop & frisk, security breach)
And 90% of the examples you gave did not fall under any of the definitions that you cut and pasted.
06-30-2006, 01:10 PM #45
Mitchell_in_CT
Forum Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: CT
Posts: 1,187 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
An honorable honest law abiding citizen contributing to society one day and a hardened criminal the next day after the passage of a seatbelt law or an open container law or some other such nonsense.
I (Symbolicly) have your gun to my head. Purchase protection from guns (Car insurance) at the point of guns. Where is my right to say "No"?
What a load of bullshi+.
Where is your right to say no? Move to a state that doesn't require car insurance...
"Hardened Criminal" for not wearing a belt or DUI...Um...OK...Yeah...
You need help. I suggest you get very drunk and play with loaded firearms in the safety of your own home for several hours. That will get you the help you need.
07-01-2006, 12:36 AM #46
equinox137
Forum Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 199 Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
I think that my initial knee-jerk reaction was closest to being right. Each new law that is passed creates a new criminal. An honorable honest law abiding citizen contributing to society one day and a hardened criminal the next day after the passage of a seatbelt law or an open container law or some other such nonsense. You know the money makers. Hell it brings in revenue for the State.
That is a policy issue, not one of corruption. And a seatbelt violator, a hardened criminal??? What planet are you on?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
You can argue that this is Government corruption and not police corruption. “overusing one's authority, or profiteering via one's authority. The key element is misuse of official authority; the gain can be personal or for the common good.”
Not if the law is upheld/not struck down by a court of competent jurisdiction. Even so, the thread is about police corruption, not laws you might not like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shuftin
Becoming a police officer is voluntary. There is no gun to your head forcing you to join the force. I do not have the option to volenteer. I (Symbolicly) have your gun to my head. Purchase protection from guns (Car insurance) at the point of guns. Where is my right to say "No"? Car jackers and rapist hear "No" all the time. I'm getting off the subject. Yes this is Government corruption but police volenteer to be the hired guns for the State collecting revenue and calling it law enforcement. It is also police corruption in that misusing one's authority for (State) profit. I say this thinking of Wyatt Earp and other town sherriffs who "To serve and to protect" the people instead of siding with the State against the people.
I don't know about everyone else, but you completely lost me with comparing car insurance and guns. Although I don't necessarily agree with forced auto insurance - I don't think you can call that corruption either.