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Post by worried on Jan 22, 2007 9:40:49 GMT -5
I am a 10 yr police veteran and I am genuinely interested in what people think of the police. Here is your chance to tell a cop what you think of him and all his brothers and sisters in law enforcement. I live in a small town, low crime rate. Our police here like to invent crime so they have something to do. In most cases they target children (we do not have gangs) here making arrest on the craziest things and in my opinion brewing a breeding field for criminals. They abuse their power to the fullest and like it when the towns people are under their control. There are very few people who will stand up and fight for their rights, which are so badly mistreated that it worries me. In my town there are no good cops, I can't say there is just a few bad apples, the whole basket is rotten.
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 22, 2007 11:35:54 GMT -5
I live in a small town, low crime rate. Our police here like to invent crime so they have something to do. In most cases they target children (we do not have gangs) here making arrest on the craziest things and in my opinion brewing a breeding field for criminals. They abuse their power to the fullest and like it when the towns people are under their control. There are very few people who will stand up and fight for their rights, which are so badly mistreated that it worries me. In my town there are no good cops, I can't say there is just a few bad apples, the whole basket is rotten. Worried;Check out: policecrime.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=policenews&action=display&thread=1169368494If this problem exists in your home town it is from the top down. The action of returning a bad bushel of rotten apples will likely net you a coupon for "Buy one get one free". Now you have twice the bad apples and they are even more rotten than the original batch. My suggestion is to go after the vendor. The Mayor, City council, or whoever. Remember the Nuremberg defense "I was just following orders".
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Post by worried on Jan 22, 2007 12:55:17 GMT -5
If this problem exists in your home town it is from the top down.
That is correct, which means the whole basket is rotten.
I have already gone to the top and addressed my concerns. In the end they tried to make me feel bad for not wanting to obey their laws and their rules. Here's an example (and to me an example of too much control).
Where I live in the state of Pa. we have a curfew. It applies to kids 17 and under. 11:00 pm. Now to be honest because I live in a small town there really isn't much for the kids to do after 11 anyways, so I supported the curfew and told my kids so. However I do have a 17 yr. old who travels alot. He goes to a lot of concerts out of town and out of state. When he is away at a concert, he returns home late. I was just recently informed by one in authority that when he enters city limits to return home, he is breaking curfew and they have the right to arrest him for such a crime.
Crime?? Returning home... Mind you he is in a car, not out roaming the streets. Well I got very concerned and asked what I could do to prevent this from happening. I was told that I would have to call and get permission granted for my son to attend the concert and return late.
No disrespect but it will be a cold day in hell that I have to call someone in authority in my town and get permission for my son to attend a concert. I am the parent, I should not have to call a city police or the mayor or the manager to get permission for such things.
I can't even believe that this happens elsewhere. If so, I would really like to know about it. This is where my concerns and worries set in.
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 22, 2007 18:59:05 GMT -5
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 23, 2007 2:51:32 GMT -5
It is not my belief that police officers are high school drop outs and paddy flippers. My intent was that in the greater scheme of things concerning Governmental bureaucracy police officers are at the bottom of the totem pole. Of all those with power and authority police officers are the equivalent of (Governmental) paddy flippers by their position. In other words police officers are on the receiving end and the last in line of Governmental bureaucracy and can do little to make world changes.
First: I have always held that the world (America) would be a better place if police officers were better educated (College Degrees). I have never portrayed myself as knowing the exact level of education of police officers.
Second: I fully realize that there is a deficit of police officers across our nation. To place a criteria that all incoming recruits must first have a college degree would make the deficit even greater. I was mildly surprised with the degree of education in your department. Note that I said mildly surprised.
Third: Should you read all of my scribblings on this web site (as well as my scribblings on other web sites) you may note that I am Anti-Big Government and not Anti-LE.
Fourth: This web site is an elbow and point at the police officers web site and yes I do my fair share of it. As a parent when I see bad children doing bad things I look to the parents and blame the parents. Most of my posts point to the Gods, the Masters, and the Signers Of Paychecks when I pipe up about police officers.
As a police officer you are well aware of the difference between a drug user sitting on his couch in his living room and the kingpin who actually flies the drugs into the USA. My gun sites are set on the kingpin. I view police officers as the users sitting on the couch. I can elbow and point but in actuality I blame the Government.
The problem with the hippy's and the flower children in the sixties is that they thought that change could be made from the bottom up. No No And Hell No. Change is made from the top down. I am after your boss and not individual police officers.
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 23, 2007 3:06:41 GMT -5
You most certainly do not have answer this.
What is spd49
Is it something like Public School 49?
Police Department 49?
What does "S" stand for?, and no I am not going there.
Just having fun.
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Jan 23, 2007 19:27:18 GMT -5
I'll be happy to share the origin of spd49. S(The name of the town that I grew up in and proudly serve). I'm going to withold that to discourage the less enlightened from sending me messages at work. Pd is police department. 49 is my id number.
I see what you are saying about big government and I agree somewhat. I guess the fundamental difference between us is that I still see government at the local, state and federal level as an arm of the people and for the people. While I certainly disagree with many aspects of government on all levels, I still don't see it as a fundamentally corrupt and malevolent system.
It does seem to me that you have a fundamental misconception about the vast majority of police departments and police officers. Most departments are small agencies that are made up of members of the community. We have a stake in making the place that we work a better place to live. We are not a monolithic "Police Department" that seperate ourselves from the people we police. The vast majority of the people that I deal with are pretty good people. The good ones that I arrest made a mistake and have to answer for that mistake i.e. an arrest for operating under the influence. Other people that I arrest are dangerous criminals. These are the gang members, house breakers and drug dealers that prey on the people that I am sworn to protect. I take great pride in taking these people off the street.
Police officers are certainly not on the bottom of the totem pole. I prefer to see it that we are the first level of a system of justice that while not perfect is still pretty damn good. I may be naive, but I still feel that one person can make a difference from the bottom up. I make a difference in my little corner, you make a difference in yours and so on. I guess in the end, my point is that the police are part of the solution to the ills of society and not part of the problem. Again, thanks for the dialogue.
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 24, 2007 3:42:08 GMT -5
When I was in the Military (Army) we discussed global issues. When I got out of the military the discussions I faced were "who's dogs had puppies" and "who's tractor is stuck". My problem is that I see things on too broad of a scale. I view police officers as the armed branch of the Government. There we go again, Government. I agree that it is hard for me to see police officers as individuals serving the community.
Shuftin! What? Huh? Er? Eh? Duh? You speaking German again? I didn't hear anything about dogs or tractors coming out of your mouth.
My bad. Government = Police.
I was a soldier and I carried a gun for the Government. I've seen Government corruption on a grand scale.
In the Army my official M-O-S (Military Operational Specialty) was a 63Charley [Track & wheel mechanic]. If it required diesel, gasoline or kerosene and produced carbon dioxide I was required to overhaul, rebuild and/or fix it. In 1980 the Army decided that this was too much information and too much responsibility for a single man to be proficient at. 63Charley was broken down into sub categories. I was stationed with a self-propelled 155 Howitzer unit at the time so I became a 63Delta. I was only authorized to work on and to fix Howitzers from this point forward. This is the official version. In actuality I was part of the "Special Weapons" team. Duh um Duh nukes. Yes a 155 Howitzer can lob a nuke 18 miles or more. I was forbidden to go to the Berlin wall for fear that I would be kidnapped and tortured for my secrets. Even the names of the hand tools themselves that we used were considered "Top Secrete". Go figure on that one. When I got out of the military in 1983 I signed a release form stating that I would maintain my secrets for ten years. Today in 2007 whatever I know is now outdated.
Yes I have a problem with the Government and the police are the hired gunmen (Soldiers) of the Government.
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Jan 26, 2007 3:40:20 GMT -5
Shuftin,
I don't really get your reply. What does your military service have to do with police misconduct or government corruption? Because something in the military was classified means that it was wrong or corrupt?
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Post by worried on Jan 29, 2007 19:07:24 GMT -5
Shuftin,, I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading on this site..I am impressed with how people can share their ideas and opinions without being under attack..Where I live we have a blog/message board---(feels like a chat room) and the subject regarding our local police is brought up all the time....There are some who are not happy at all with them,,some who think police are wonderful everywhere...I have shared somethings that I have learned from this web site...Crimes that have involved officers from the west coast to the east coast...(that isn't saying that they are all bad,,,but it's also saying they aren't all good)..something that I just wanted to show to those who are living in a small sheltered community....Well I just got told to piss off by a former police officer from the west who just moved to our area and he fits right in....So I wanted to thank you and the officer who is posting on this site for having respect towards each other's opinions... I invite you to my town on: www.hellificare.com
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Post by Jenette Holgerson on Jan 29, 2007 21:31:42 GMT -5
Do you think this officer committed misconduct? At 4:45 am after a night of drinking and dancing at a downtown hotel, BLANK was driving with evaline and two friends. He skidded on the ice into the path of an oncoming car. " I got out of my car and went over to the other driver and told him who I was." The driver was a 21 year old machinist named Robert Sims from East Cleavland. BLANK explained that he agreed with Sims to have him follow BLANK to the hospital. When he realized that Sims was not following him, BLANK returned to the accident scene, but another motorist had already taken Sims to the hospital. " After I got home, I immediately called the hospital and talked to someone. I wanted to make sure the injured man was all right. I said that I would have my insurance adjusters on the job in the morning." The accident did serious injury to BLANK's reputation. The newspapers had characterized it as a "hit-skip" accident and focused on the fact that BLANK had been drinking. (info provided by http://www.crimelibrary.com) SUBSTITUTE BLANK with Elliot Ness then Director of Public Safety in Cleavland. This goes to show that even heroes have feet of clay. What would be done today if this happened? Once again, the good old days weren't perfect. I would hope they would do better with 'Michael Alayon' "today".
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Post by Shuftin on Jan 30, 2007 1:36:59 GMT -5
Okay I'm back or so I think. Sorry for the delay. I damned near cashed a check that my body couldn't cover. This is odd as I consider myself to be a vibrant young man. Oh well, work is work.
I used to have to have the body of a Greek God. Now I just have the body of a Greek. Is it possible for muscles to bruise themselves simply from overworking? My body is in pain.
spd49
I don't really get your reply. What does your military service have to do with police misconduct or government corruption? Because something in the military was classified means that it was wrong or corrupt?
No, no of course not. A military GI is obliged to obey orders and not to think. Individuality and free thinking is forbidden. There is a distinct culture and a cultism attitude similar to that of gang mentality. Google "The Nuremberg Defense".
Police officers are hired gunmen of the Government, by the Government, and for the Government. Police officers are on the payroll of the Government. Police officers conduct Government business, in the interest of the Government, and for the betterment of the Government.
As a former Governmental hired gunman (Military GI) I've been there, done it, and did it. What am I to think when I see a Governmental hired gunman in uniform?
You and I have worked in different departments, and in different times. Our uniforms may be different but our payroll master is still the same. All I'm saying is that possibly I have seen more than you have.
worried;
Thanks for the complement and the invite. Let me crawl there. No sudden moves okay.
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Jan 30, 2007 6:58:33 GMT -5
Shuftin,
Hope you are feeling better. The only orders that I obey from my superiors are LEGAL ORDERS. I would always refuse to obey illegal orders. The "I was only obeying orders" defense does not fly for police officers in America today as it did not work in post war Germany. If I arrest somebody falsely because my Sergeant tells me to do it the civil liability falls on me as well as the Sergeant. I'm not losing my house for anyone. I think that today most police officers are sufficiently educated and moral to differentiate between legal and illegal orders. I think that the police "gang" mentality is another concept that is overstated by most people today. Police work is a brotherhood. I'll support my brothers and sisters almost any way that I can. This concept does not include perjury or coverups of criminal activity.
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Post by bushido on Jan 31, 2007 9:27:29 GMT -5
What are things coming too? Only the selffish and small minded would believe that crimes are victimless. Drive drunk or fast or reckless, you are infringing on my right to safely take my kids to school or elsewhere. If you do not have car insurance but then your recklessly hit me, I have to deal with the nightmare of paying my car loan, hoping I can afford to fix my car, and loss of work because I cannot afford the loaner I may need. I can go on and on. I vote. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose. I deal with it. How can anyone attest to laws not being wanted by the american public when most do agree that many of the laws that are cited here are needed laws. The good ole days do not even begin to apply to todays society but if you want to get down to it here it is. Our founding fathers were educated christian men who wanted a land of religious freedom. They felt that they could do it better so they fought for the right to do it. These men had slaves, kept their women as property not allowing them to be educated, allowing only "acceptable" behavior of them, and they had no voting rights. These founders also had no intentions of true religious freedom. Their intention was the freedom to read the Christian bible and believe in it according to their own interpretation - protestantism. Anything else declared you a witch and the burned you at the stake.
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Feb 1, 2007 19:31:52 GMT -5
Shuftin,
Just some random thoughts to continue the discussion. I see that you are not satisfied with the state of American Government and the police. What would you do to change it if you had the power? What would the role of the police be in society today?
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Post by Shuftin on Feb 2, 2007 2:21:49 GMT -5
Money is the root of all evil. The State gives the Federal Government money. The Federal Government charges a handling fee and then returns the money back to the State and calls it a grant. Think about this!!! A Grant?? We [the Federal Government] grant you [the State] the privilege of having your own money returned to you but only if you kiss our ass. The State salivates at the thought of having their own money returned to them. The public has no legal consideration in this transaction. The State wants their money returned and they will work against the will of the people [their constituents] in order to get it. The Federal Government dictates and the State will kiss their ass. Speed limits, seat belt laws, drivers insurance, etc., etc. As a police officer you know far more about this than I do. Now the State has their money. Guess what? Now it’s between the State and the County. Then it’s between the County and the City. Basically shit rolls down hill. Those who are at the bottom of the shit pile are “We the people” and we have no say in the matter. We the people do not do not receive our own money back in the form of a “Grant” so we the people are not bribed into compliance. Therefore we the people can only be Enforced and through this Enforcement even more money is to be gained. The Enforcers of the Federal Government dictates are LE [Law Enforcement]. What we have is a Socialist Dictator of a Federal Government and LE is on the payroll of the Government and low man in the food chain. Now to answer your question “What would you do to change it if you had the power? What would the role of the police be in society today?” DECENTRALIZATION. DECENTRALIZATION. DECENTRALIZATION. Cut the string between the Federal Government, State Government, City Government and we the people. The Federal Government is a control freak and laws are designed to force Government control on the people. Money is used as a bribe for local authorities [LE] to Enforce Governmental control on the people. Sheep led to slaughter. For sake of argument let’s go back 200 years. There was the Town people, the Town Mayor, and the Town sheriff. What ever was said or done was by a mutual meeting and agreeing of the minds. The police worked under the Mayor and both worked for the people. The people had a say and there was no outside Dictator with bribe money in hand. Was it a life of milk and honey back then? No, of course not but I believe there was a stronger bond between the police and the people. Police were the good guys, the crime fighters. If trouble brewed police officers were the peace keepers. Yes there was the black/white thing and the [newer] Jim Crow laws. If I lived 200 years ago I would be bitching about the black/white thing and the [newer] Jim Crow laws. It is in my nature to bitch/fight. By the way have you ever read Nicoli Machiavelli “The Prince” or any of his other works? It is an easier read than Kant. If not here is the complete book “The Prince” by Nicoli Machiavelli online and free. www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htmThis is required reading for some college degrees. Danger, danger, Will Robertson, danger. After you read it you will never see life in the same way again. I see Machiavellism everywhere.
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Feb 2, 2007 12:59:36 GMT -5
Shuftin,
I think that you are over emphasizing the importance that local law enforcement places on grant money and the impact that the money received has on police operations. I admit that my perspective is somewhat limited since I don't work for a huge department. We are certainly not getting millions in Homeland Security funds like the NYPD etc. My department has an approximately 3.2 million dollar budget.(rough number I'm not in administration thankfully) I examined the grants we got last year. 50,000 was in Community Policing funds from the state. This was used in a variety of different ways. Some was used for gang enforcement(the city next to us has a terrible gang problem that leaks into our town) Some money was used for overtime to combat a rash of housebreaks we suffered. Some money was used for commercial traffic enforcement (We have a large quarry in our town and the residents were screaming about trucks speeding in their neighborhoods) More of this money was used to provide security at the local high school after a drive by shooting incident involving teenagers. Other funds were used to buy bike helmets and car seats for residents of the town with financial problems. This money was used for the benefit of the people of my community. My Chief had tremendous discretion on how this money was spent and used it wisely.
We got $15,000 in traffic enforcement money, yes the dreaded "Click it or Ticket" funds and also "You Drink, You Drive, You Lose" funds. I can assure you that the town makes no money on this program. I'll use myself as an example. I worked five 4 hour shifts. At my overtime rate this works out to be about $1000 paid by the state. The town gets a percentage of fines issued. I issued 40 written warnings (no fines, no money and perfectly acceptable by the grant criteria) 5 civil motor vehicle infranctions totalling $850. I believe the town gets half of this, so $425. I made 5 Operating Under the Influence of Alcohol arrests. This resulted in 4 convictions and one not guilty verdict. 2 of the arrests were guilty pleas and caused no court time. The other three cases that went to trial caused significant overtime due to court appearances. In the end, the department ended up losing money on this grant even with all the fines incurred by the people convicted of Operating Under the Influence. I'll admit that I made money due to my court appearances. I will equally state that I earned this money while doing my job. I didn't arrest anyone for the court time, I arrested them because they were drunk. (The not guilty had a great lawyer, he was probably the most drunk of all the people I arrested.) In the end the town lost money. The Chief takes this grant money to enhance traffic safety not pad his budget.
The final bit of grant money was $45,000 used for equipment. I believe it was from the Feds. It was used to buy a camera used in building searches and a vehicle. I don't know the criteria for the grants so I can't really comment.
That's all I could find, $110,000 out of 3.2 million. This may not be 100% accurate but I believe it's close. If my math is correct that works out to be 3.4% of the budget. While not chump change, it is certainly is not a huge percentage.
In my state, Mayors, City Councils and Boards of Selectmen(local term for Town Alderman) and elected Town meeting members have tremendous power over the Police. What is this power? The purse strings. This is how it goes in my town. The Chief recommends a budget. This must get approved by the Town Manager. It then goes to the finance committee. They either recommend or don't recommend the budget to Town Meeting. Town Meeting (an elected group of approximately 400 citizens) Town Meeting then votes to accept the budget or not. If they don't accept the budget, it gets trimmed and voted on again. Recently, we were facing the layoffs of 4 police officers. It went to a Town Referendum (a vote by the registered voters of the town). 66% of the people who voted actually voted to raise their own taxes and kept these police officers employed. I don't know about you but this sounds like democracy in action to me. A professional makes a recommendation. It goes through the layers of government. It is then voted on by the people. If we were out abusing people, I don't think they would voluntarily raise their own tax rate to prevent layoffs.
I think (and maybe I'm being naive) that the vast majority of police departments across the country are still answerable to the people. My town is no oasis. Most policing is a function of local government. Local government is made up of the people of the community. The people determine how they are treated by government by involvement in their community i.e. running for office, voting and being vocal in the press.
Police officers have a tremendous amount of oversight.(rightfully so) As a patrolman I answer to Sergeants,Lieutenants,Captains, a Chief, a Town Manager, a Board of Selectman, Town Meeting, DAs, Defense Attorneys, and Judges. We all ultimately answer to the people who have put us in the positions of trust that we occupy.
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Post by Shuftin on Feb 2, 2007 18:35:36 GMT -5
Side note: For what it's worth. Last night while writing my post at approximately 2:00 am I left the house to drive .6 miles to a local corner store to buy a pact of cigarettes. This is a 1.2 mile round trip for me. I encountered seven sheriff's patrol cars during my excurision. In fact I was pulled over on my return trip. The deputy did a u-turn in the middle of the road in order to pull me over.
Macon Georgia is the nearist City with a population of about 120,000 people. I live seven miles outside of City limits and in the County. Granted the County is built up and looks like a City. Macon is drooling at the prospect of incorperating us into the City. More/lost taxes in all.
What was the result of me being pulled over? Nothing! I'm still here. My point is that in my neck of the woods this is considered to be normal. Drive one mile and expect to be pulled over. It is to be expected when you leave your house to be pulled over by County sheriffs and/or City police.
My thoughts on the matter are "when you give up rights in exchange for security you deserve neither".
Either way I encountered a police officer dead center of my last post on this topic. Did I cover this over well enough?
I bet you that you thought that I wrote all that at one time
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spd49
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Post by spd49 on Feb 3, 2007 1:49:54 GMT -5
Shuftin,
Was the officer polite and professional? Did he tell you why he pulled you over? Did this shameless revenue generator give you a ticket to make some money for his bosses "THE GOVERNMENT"? More likely, he was a cop doing his job. He probably saw a minor traffic violation and figured he would check you out. He saw that you were a regular joe out to get a pack of smokes and sent you on your way. I've taken some pretty dangerous people off the street that started as minor traffic violations.(A guy with a rape warrant, a felon with a loaded 9mm with an obliterated serial number to name a couple) If you see the police out there then so do the criminals. Sounds like this would make your neighborhood pretty safe.
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Post by Shuftin on Feb 3, 2007 4:08:11 GMT -5
Actually the police officer was rude and obnoxious. He informed me numerous times that if I was lying to him he was going to take me to jail. I came up clean as I always do and then he became nice and let me go. He did give me a warning for not using my blinkers when I pulled right onto the shoulder of the road. He even advised me that I didn’t have to sign the ticket as it was only a warning.
As to why he pulled me over, he never said and I didn’t ask. Like I said earlier, a person in my neck of the woods expects to be pulled over. I must admit however that there was a lot of police activity around a “closed” Burger King. At first I thought that they [the police] were Jonesing for doughnuts but then I remembered that Burger King does not sell doughnuts so therefore something had to be going down.
Three months ago, when it was warmer, I walked to the same corner store. [Gas prices]. Again on my return trip to my house an oncoming deputy stopped me. He said “where are you going?” I said “home”. He informed me that a walker had been struck by a vehicle on this very road the previous week and then he went on his merry way. This police officer was polite and professional.
Maybe I should stop going home. I’ll just keep going. The last three times that I have been stopped have been in route “Home” on this same stretch of road. Do I feel safer? NO. Needled needlessly? YES. I moved into the County in order to get away from City politics and City police. By the way did I mention City police?
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